Leaky Konsort roof

Quintessence
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Leaky Konsort roof

Post by Quintessence » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:21 pm

Well the title says it all. Having bought Quintessence at the end of a pretty dry summer I am discovering the odd minor leak. I will leave the windows out of this one as there is a lot of info out there on that. I suspect around the mast foot fittings water might be getting in as the back of the headlining panel is a bit damp. Secondly the sliding hatch frame sometimes has drips in the forward corners. The stern of the boat is facing the weather in the yard (ie SW). I am reluctant to start taking the headlinings down until I have had a full season with the boat, getting to know her properly so that I can prioritise. I am tempted to just go round from above with Captain Tolleys Creeping Crack cure gererously applied. Any pointers would be appreciated. Like I say I expect to live with this until I decide to get stuck into the old headlinings and do some re-wiring too. But Konsort specific advice would be useful and much appreciated

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Re: Leaky Konsort roof

Post by Jolly Roger » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:25 pm

The fittings around the mast probably need rebedding as the original sealant has dried out or insufficient was used. Using Creeping Crack Sealer may give a temporary solution but will make cleaning up for a proper job a bit more difficult.

With regard to the main hatch, it is likely any water on the hatch is being blown forward under the hatch box. It should drain away either through drain holes that could be blocked or run back alongside the main runners. If the boat is slightly bow down then water can accumulate and overflow due to the wind, so it is worth checking if she is level. To do this, place a level on a main berth as these are always correctly inclined to the horizontal.

These answers are general comments and not Konsort specific.
Roger
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Re: Leaky Konsort roof

Post by Eeyore » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:26 pm

Just as an aside, on my last boat not a Westerly, we eventually traced a leak at the base of the mast , not to a dodgy wiring gland but water seeping all the way down a mast head tricolour/ anchor laight cable inside the outer insulation. :shock:
I always suspect wiring glands as the rubber grommets harden. Just got rid of three separate glands and fitted a stainless swan neck for all the mast wiring, the only proven way imo.
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Re: Leaky Konsort roof

Post by Quintessence » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:02 pm

Thanks Roger and Eyore and thanks for the welcome. I'm guessing to "rebed the fittings around the mast" means headlining panels need to come down. At the moment everytime I go to the boat I have been focussing on other jobs, and just notice the minor leaks in passing. "Renovations" is a word I am not ready for yet but perhaps next winter, I'm in the assessment phase....... Understanding the structure of the hatch will be worthwhile I know. I have done some searches in the technical section (as I am in WOA) but have yet to score a direct hit.

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Re: Leaky Konsort roof

Post by rhumlady » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:50 pm

Firstly you need to know that any water getting through the deck is going to get into the balsa core and potentially cause serious problems with rot which can be very difficult to sort once it sets in. I do have experience in this respect which was caused by failing to seal the holes left when the anchor stowage fittings on the foredeck were removed. I also need to replace about a square foot of core around the vent above the wetlocker[GRIMACING FACE]. I had the same problem as Eeyore with the cable from the steaming light which took several years to trace. The problem was water ingress at the light fitting, it flooded, and was cured by replacing the fitting and getting as much sealant into the cable at the fitting because you can't do it down below due to hydrostatic pressure.
When checking the mainhatch make sure that the plexiglass of the hatch is not touching the wood surrounds as the water will track round and run down the inside of the wood. This can be caused by wear between the plexiglass and the aluminium channelling it runs in and it is the plexiglass that wears. Roger is right about the drain holes as well because this can make things worse.
A Westerly designed with hindsight would be a completely different beast.
One point I would make it that if you are not sure when the deck fittings were last rebedded then you should start a program of work and I would start with the chainplates port and starboard this let's you see if there is any waiting of the stainless through crevice corrosion due to the core getting wet. The babystay is bolted through solid glass with no core to cause problems.
Derek
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Re: Leaky Konsort roof

Post by Quintessence » Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:24 pm

Thanks Derek. I can see you are making some serious points there about the balsa core as well as the chainplates. I will take them on board and do some more exploring.

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Re: Leaky Konsort roof

Post by Jolly Roger » Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:44 pm

Dave

I think you are realising your are now a PBO. This expression I first came across in the 1960's and means poor bl##dy owner. Or as the President of the USA once said the buck stops here. So enjoy all the many facets of being an owner and the many skills you will shortly learn - some learnt the hard way.
Roger
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Re: Leaky Konsort roof

Post by Bertgear » Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:04 am

The headlining on the Konsort main cabin is fixed to panels these can be dropped quite easy by undoing the fixing screws, I have sometimes just loosened one side and took out the outher which will let the panel drop enough to have a look with a torch if you suspect a problem under a panel
Bert Gear
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Re: Leaky Konsort roof

Post by Quintessence » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:50 am

Thanks for the encouragement Bert. I will bite the bullet and drop those panels and then hide behind the sofa.....
Before Quintessence I had a Centaur which did not have the panels. I took on the forecabin headlining so I have a little "PBO" experience, but to be frank (Roger), I am at the start of the curve. I will still stubbornly resist the word "renovation" for the time being though, purely for my sanity. :) "Gradual assessment of the issues" is more ok!

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Re: Leaky Konsort roof

Post by Quintessence » Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:40 am

https://www.flickr.com/photos/moonshine2000/

The link above takes you to my piks from yesterday. I did remove the central headlining panel and it is clear that my main damp issue is around the hatch area. Looking at the sealant around the fittings I could see near the mast I was happy that the sealant is still flexible and is not original. I will do more work there exploring.

However regarding the chainplates I noticed mine are different to my neighbour's Konsort. They have two triangular shapes protruding above the deck so two attachment points. As in my piks you can see the single deck fitting and under the deck you can see the heavy rod extending to another fixing point below. I am not sure what the name for these are? (help?) It certainly all looks solid and dry anyhow, but I was wondering if it was standard (mine is an early Konsort).
So I have two questions. The other photos show various surface imperfections on the deck. I am guessing these are simply where paint has lifted in the past due to inadequtae priming or prep/ and the deck has simply been painted over. I can live with the appearance for the time being but I am wondering how easy it would be to surface fill and repaint. Comments on this welcome.
Secondly regarding the sliding hatch cover is it possible to remove it without disturbing the teak bit that runs over the rear edge of it (I think I remember reading you had to remove it on yours Derek)?

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Re: Leaky Konsort roof

Post by Jolly Roger » Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:07 am

If you want to check exactly where the leak is, make sure the top of the headlining is dry and covered with talcum powder. Any leak will leave runs in the dry powder.

Your shroud plate fittings look quite normal. The heavy rod fixing below the deck is called a tie bar and "ties" the deck to the hull. Again that is a very standard method of taking the loading of the cap shrouds to the hull as it is not on a bulkhead, which is another normal method of attachment.

Deck paint can easily have imperfections, either due to poor adhesion or something chipping it off. If the former then you will need to sand back until all the edges are firmly stuck. Then in both cases fill with 2 part waterproof (car or marine) filler and sand level. Then repaint. Do make sure you use the 3M blue masking tape as this has a 7 day life, rather than a single day of decorators masking tape. It is more expensive but many people find the problem of removing decorators masking tape that has been applied for too long a major time consuming problem.

From the look of your photos it should be possible to remove the cover over the hatch, but you would need to closely examine the aft adge to see if the wood is fixed to it, as it looks as if it is butted against it.
Roger
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Re: Leaky Konsort roof

Post by Quintessence » Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:32 am

Thanks Roger, that's very encouraging. My priorities are now
1. To continue to explore the deck fitting sealant issues
2. Get to grips with the hatch, possibly rebedding it
3. Make the deck surface "nice" in due course
cheers
Dave

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Re: Leaky Konsort roof

Post by rhumlady » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:22 pm

Dave,

You can remove the hatch cover as long as you get at the nuts under the headlining. As you probably know from your Centaur Westerly made a habit of using bolt croppers to chop the excess from any bolts which makes removing them a two man job in most cases. I did have rust stains around some of them.
I can't agree with Roger on the chainplates as on the Konsort the cap or top shrouds should come down In line with the mast and the after lowers go to the position that your shrouds go to and extend down on to the hull sides as per the photos. Internally the cap shroud chainplates straddles the main bulkhead and has two 6mm stainless plates through bolted to the bulkhead. These turn at right-angle's under the deck with the two legs of the A frame going through one each. If you see your neighbour it maybe helpful to compare notes on this. The arrangement you have is more suited to the fractional rig of a Fulmar than the masthead rig of the Konsort.
I would want to make sure that there is no damage to the deck due to something being dropped on it so there is no danger of water ingress to the balsa core.
Derek
Konsort 'Rhumlady' KT213

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Re: Leaky Konsort roof

Post by Quintessence » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:42 pm

I had a good explore today..... and took all the saloon headlining panels down. :) I also studied the sliding hatch / garage and removed the plexiglass hatch.

First question. My hatch has a wooden bar on either side which is what the lock works on underneath and on the top side provides the finger grip to pull it shut. Ie the bars lie accross the boat, not front to back. Should there be a third bar at the forward end of the hatch on the top side which would close the large slot shaped gap between the top surface of the hatch and the underneath of the garage roof? My boat faces the weather in the yard and I can see this is an open invitation to rain. I have seen the forward drain holes of the hatch cover and they are clear, but as Roger mentioned at the start, the boat may not be level, and in this instance if the bow was high it would puddle in the cockpit end of the garage and perhaps cause problems, precisely over the worst wet bits on my central headlining panel. An alternative to this third wooden strip would be to shape some closed cell foam into a wedge piece and jam it in whenever away from the boat and it is getting the weather from the transom end.

My two other observations are 1.The nuts holding the hatch cover look like very corroded brown blobs and are definitely a source of damp. They need replacing so I will do proper job there to keep the balsa core dry 2. there is definite water ingress from where the teak coaming? is fixed to the roof, particularly on the port side where you have the near 90 degree angle. Not sure how I need to tackle that yet. For starters I imagine I would rake out the old sealant and make good with marine sealant but will have to see what I find. Pointers of course welcome. Otherwise I was pleasantly suprised by the lack of moisture on the headlining panels. The central one I took down on Sunday was the worst so the hatch design ? missing bar might be the main culprit.

Contributions much appreciated
Dave

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Re: Leaky Konsort roof

Post by rhumlady » Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:37 pm

I think I know what you mean by the third bar but I have never seen one fitted. I believe they thought the water would run out onto the curved coachroof and then out through the holes onto the deck. Something like you specified may well do or a canvas cover rolled over the hatch and fixed in the cockpit would do it. I have a piece of plasticised canvas, was a fender cloth, which gets tied round the winches on either side of the hatch with the other two corners tied round the genoa winches the angle allows air to circulate. The ties are 6mm bungy cord in a loop so they just slip over the winches.
Derek
Konsort 'Rhumlady' KT213

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