W33 Ketch relaminating hull

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IsaakOker
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W33 Ketch relaminating hull

Post by IsaakOker » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:59 pm

Hello ,

First of all, thank you all very much for the information in this forum. I've just bought a W33 Ketch with an over-enthusiastic sand-blasted hull and in bad shape.

As I have just bought it and want to get it back in the water soon, I have to get some things clear about her structure. I have worked with fiberglass and resins but not too much on sailboats.

She had spent 8 years in a marina without any care, the anodes disappeared, the prop and shaft disintegrated and water entered in the bilges. The previous owner took the boat out of the water got someone to sandblast the hull as it had osmosis and the worker just sand-blasted the entire outer layer of fiberglass from the water-line till the keel down to a strange white chalky substance(Does anyone know what it is? The previous owner says it's Halmatic, but I thought Halmatic is a sailboat brand).

Now, the question is: How many layers of MAT and Roving should I apply to get the structural faults fixed?
And, How can I reinforce the hull at the bottom where it joins the keel(I was thinking of sanding it down to flat fiberglass, applying a coat of resin then a layer of 6 inch of 10ounce MAT from the back to the front of the keel+ the same of 18ounce Roving over the MAT, then the second layer, double the width, the third layer with triple the width and so on till the fourth layer of MAT and Roving is finished)?

Regards,
Isaak

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Re: W33 Ketch relaminating hull

Post by IsaakOker » Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:34 pm

Here are some images of the hulls state.
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Jolly Roger
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Re: W33 Ketch relaminating hull

Post by Jolly Roger » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:48 pm

Welcome to the forum Isaak

The first thing you need to know is the moisture content of the hull. This can be done by a surveyor, but as she has been out of the water in the Canaries for a while after the laminate has been exposed, it will probably be within acceptable tolerances without extra drying.

The next step is to try and establish how much fiberglass has been removed. If the skin fittings are still in place then that will be a good guide. It might also be worthwhile asking who did the sand blasting, there cannot be that many in the Canaries, as they might be able to advise.

The chalky white powder is probably the salts that are from the water seeping into the fiberglass strands and swelling the polyester resin to also become resin dust.

The thickness of fiberglass removed will give an idea of what needs to be replaced. You will need to check online or ask a fiberglass company how thick a layer of a particular weight mat will be. From that you will be able to calculate how many layers. I would expect to only use chopped strand mat, ensuring the final coat(s) are very light and thin to minimise sanding and filling.

For the repair I would use an epoxy rather than a polyester resin. There are plenty of good articles on line. I would recommend the following West epoxy ones as a basis to start with.
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/How ... enance.pdf
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/polyester-over-epoxy/
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/repairing- ... -blisters/
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/west-syste ... ss-repair/

As a general point, Westerly hulls of this period are far thicker than those produced today, so they are now considered to be over engineered. If you are not quite as thick as it was orginally constructed, it will not be a critical matter.

Best of luck undertaking this majopr project. I do not feel it will be a quick job to complete all the necessary things to get into the water. It is best not to set a time limit, but do it right first time. Also you will always find jobs take longer than planned and others suddenly appear. If you are not a member of the Westerly Owners Association, then I would join as the technical articles available to members on the web site are worth far more than the cost of membership, plus some suppliers also offer discounts.
Roger
Concerto Fulmar FR38
Photos at http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/Conce ... 2/library/

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Re: W33 Ketch relaminating hull

Post by IsaakOker » Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:11 am

Hello Jolly Roger,

Thank you for your reply.

We already had it measured and the hull is completely dry except of the rudder, but I don't think it is possible to get the rudder to dry totally.

The thru-hull fittings are still there and by looking at them I can see that about 7-9 mm are missing of which 3 were gelcoat and previous antifouling so I estimate that the missing laminate is somewhere between 4-6mm maybe a bit more.

It is strange because it is "chalky white" but it isn't really powder..it does literally look and feel like chalk as it is solid on the hull and in some points it has small bubble holes that look like they are from the beginning on. I was wondering if I the new laminate of MAT will stick onto that chalk when sanded smooth.

I'm taking it easy and will let it dry a bit more till February as it doesn't really rain here before I start on it full on. But we have set us a small aim on getting the hull ready for the summer so lets see.

I'll give those links a check.
Thanks for the tip on joining, I'll do it further on I suppose. Although as I'm in Spain I shop here and most information can be found around.

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Re: W33 Ketch relaminating hull

Post by rhumlady » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:02 am

The chalky white coating is 'feature' of Westerly hulls unfortunately. A good place to look for info is Google search for agentlemansyacht in which Roger Ball covers his Centaur rebuild. He had a lot of problems drying out the hull and put it down to these layers. Good luck with the job. It is a shame to see the boat in such a condition especially as the 'osmosis' was probably contained in between the two layers of gelcoat that Westerly put on. I think your starting point is going to be filling and fairing the hull with either polyester or preferably epoxy resin mixed with a filler and for information on the type to use I would second Roger's advise on reading the West system handbooks.
Derek
Konsort 'Rhumlady' KT213

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Re: W33 Ketch relaminating hull

Post by IsaakOker » Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:43 pm

rhumlady wrote:The chalky white coating is 'feature' of Westerly hulls unfortunately. A good place to look for info is Google search for agentlemansyacht in which Roger Ball covers his Centaur rebuild. He had a lot of problems drying out the hull and put it down to these layers. Good luck with the job. It is a shame to see the boat in such a condition especially as the 'osmosis' was probably contained in between the two layers of gelcoat that Westerly put on. I think your starting point is going to be filling and fairing the hull with either polyester or preferably epoxy resin mixed with a filler and for information on the type to use I would second Roger's advise on reading the West system handbooks.
Thanks, great info. I've been the whole day reading his blog, lots of info.

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Re: W33 Ketch relaminating hull

Post by rhumlady » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:12 pm

I reckon there are few who know more about Centaurs. I am refitting and Konsort which ended up as a shell without bulkheads. It is a slow job as i also own a 225 year old house which has taken priority over the last couple of years. I hope to resume work on Rhumlady in April.
Derek
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Re: W33 Ketch relaminating hull

Post by Jolly Roger » Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:11 am

IsaakOker wrote:I'm taking it easy and will let it dry a bit more till February as it doesn't really rain here before I start on it full on. But we have set us a small aim on getting the hull ready for the summer so lets see.
It might be worthwhile to have a drip protector fitted to stop any water running on the hull. All this involves is a strip of about 750mm wide heavy duty polythene taped just above the waterline. This will stop almost all rain and deck run off from saoking the exposed hull. It will not cost much, but worth spending to ensure you can start laminating on time.

The rudder was moulded in two halves. One side is fixed to the rudder stock tangs and then both sides are fixed together. The join can crack and allow water to enter the rudder. Drill a small hole at the base of the rudder with a hand drill (not electric!) to check if any drips out. The rudder is easy to repair as being small it can easily be contained in an enclosure that can be heated. Then tape around the edges and cover with a couple of layers of scrim. That should solve the problem.

I would guess the 7-9 mm of missing fiberglass would probably be 3 or 4 layers of 500gsm chopped strand mat. After sanding and filling to fair, then apply some epoxy coats. That certainly is a lot of work, I hope you have some willing helpers.

With regard to joining the owners association. It will cost you the same to join today for the year as in the summer. http://www.westerly-owners.co.uk/join.php There are plenty of owners who live outside the UK, so you will not be alone.
Roger
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Re: W33 Ketch relaminating hull

Post by IsaakOker » Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:31 pm

rhumlady wrote:I reckon there are few who know more about Centaurs. I am refitting and Konsort which ended up as a shell without bulkheads. It is a slow job as i also own a 225 year old house which has taken priority over the last couple of years. I hope to resume work on Rhumlady in April.
Good luck with her! I hope I will start early February on this one.

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Re: W33 Ketch relaminating hull

Post by IsaakOker » Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:38 pm

Jolly Roger wrote:
IsaakOker wrote:I'm taking it easy and will let it dry a bit more till February as it doesn't really rain here before I start on it full on. But we have set us a small aim on getting the hull ready for the summer so lets see.
It might be worthwhile to have a drip protector fitted to stop any water running on the hull. All this involves is a strip of about 750mm wide heavy duty polythene taped just above the waterline. This will stop almost all rain and deck run off from saoking the exposed hull. It will not cost much, but worth spending to ensure you can start laminating on time.

The rudder was moulded in two halves. One side is fixed to the rudder stock tangs and then both sides are fixed together. The join can crack and allow water to enter the rudder. Drill a small hole at the base of the rudder with a hand drill (not electric!) to check if any drips out. The rudder is easy to repair as being small it can easily be contained in an enclosure that can be heated. Then tape around the edges and cover with a couple of layers of scrim. That should solve the problem.

I would guess the 7-9 mm of missing fiberglass would probably be 3 or 4 layers of 500gsm chopped strand mat. After sanding and filling to fair, then apply some epoxy coats. That certainly is a lot of work, I hope you have some willing helpers.

With regard to joining the owners association. It will cost you the same to join today for the year as in the summer. http://www.westerly-owners.co.uk/join.php There are plenty of owners who live outside the UK, so you will not be alone.
Good tip, but it never rains down here! Southern sides of the Canarian islands are just dry as hell.

Yes, I drilled a few wholes at the base and it dripped for 2-3 hours and then stopped. As I said, the boat is out on land since more than 18months and it's always over 25 degrees here so it dries fast.

Are there no Westerlys with Roving used instead of CSM? It really makes me curious as CSM just soaks up tons of resin and doesn't give any real strength. Roving is much better for structural work so I'm going to start by sanding, then reinforcing hull and transom above the rudder. Once that is done I'll fair the belly of the hull and give it a few layers of resin before I coat with 1 layer CSM 1 of Roving and 1 final one of CSM so that I don't get a print-through into the gelcoat.

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Re: W33 Ketch relaminating hull

Post by rhumlady » Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:03 pm

I used roving when rebuilding the structure above the keel which was sodden with water and diesel. It used West epoxy which was expensive but I was looking for strength in the repair. Roger got me using a stitched cloth where the fibres are laid diagonally and held together by the stitching. It drapes and conforms much better than ravings. I just wish I had found it before I started to do the keel area. As far as the rudder is concerned I would think about splitting it along the fore and aft line as if it has been full of water you will need to ensure the tangs are not corroded as they may well not be stainless.
Derek
Konsort 'Rhumlady' KT213

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