New Vetus M2.18 in my Centaur - ancillaries

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New Vetus M2.18 in my Centaur - ancillaries

Post by TyroSailor »

Hello again.

I've just had a quotation from my (new) engineer for ancillary gear and modifications on installing this engine. They include:
Oil filter relocation kit - £340 (so I can change the filter at the back of the engine (easier) rather than the side)
Prop - £279
Prop shaft - £257
Flexible coupling - £300
Shaft seal & lube kit - £217

Am I right to be gobsmacked by this lot (there are other items as as well) or is this normal?
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Re: New Vetus M2.18 in my Centaur - ancillaries

Post by Nigel Birch »

Who was it said sailing is similar to standing in a shower tearing up £20 notes?
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Re: New Vetus M2.18 in my Centaur - ancillaries

Post by TyroSailor »

Quite. A cold shower, and at this rate it's more like £50s. :(

I wouldn't mind so much if I'd actually been sailing!
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Re: New Vetus M2.18 in my Centaur - ancillaries

Post by Jolly Roger »

TyroSailor wrote:Quite. A cold shower, and at this rate it's more like £50s. :(

I wouldn't mind so much if I'd actually been sailing!
I agree it's more like £50's then £20's. On a better point, the season is almost over, so just get on getting your boat ready to sail early next season. Then you will be able to enjoy the whole season sailing.
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Re: New Vetus M2.18 in my Centaur - ancillaries

Post by Nigel Birch »

"It's like standing under a cold shower tearing up five-pound notes."

- Prime Minister of England, Ted Heath, about Ocean Racing.

(Source: The Quotable Sailor, ISBN 1-59228-356-X)


There's inflation for you.....
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Re: New Vetus M2.18 in my Centaur - ancillaries

Post by TyroSailor »

Right.

The engine's installed and all connected up - with one exception as below - and the engineer's spending my money in New York. I've winterised the rest of the boat and covered all with a tarpaulin and, apart from a trip or two in the meantime to check on it, I won't do anything else till March.

BUT we couldn't find anywhere to connect the fuel return from the injector pump to the tank. The old engine had it connected back to the lift pump, which apparently isn't ideal as it supplies warm fuel although I don't understand why this is a problem (and it worked for 40 years). There's no fitting on the tank to connect the return pipe so we're at a bit of a loss. The alternatives seem to be:
1. Drill a hole in the (stainless steel) tank and fit a suitable spigot to connect to - cheap, quick and reasonably straightforward, but puts a load of swarf at the bottom of the tank
2. Remove the tank (difficult as the bolts at the back are inaccesible), have it modified as necessary and replace it - more expensive, and takes time
3. Replace the tank with a new (probably plastic) one with all the correct fittings - most expensive but most satisfactory in the long run I suppose.

Then the engineer had a brainwave - connect back to the fuel inlet pipe above the tank and just below the deck. It's reasonably accessible and the pipe is two halves, one connected to the deck filler and one to the tank. But they turned out to be butt-joined (with a plastic seal of some kind), with nowhere in between to connect without drilling the metal. Stalemate again on that. Then I had a brainwave: it ought to be possible to remove the top half of the pipe with the deck fiting and use that.

Anyone have any experience of or ideas about this? I've spent so much on this blasted engine already that I really don't want to fork out for a new tank!
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Re: New Vetus M2.18 in my Centaur - ancillaries

Post by philipstevens »

Have a look at the connections to your primary fuel filter. If it is a CAV 296 filter, you may find that it has two inlet and two outlet connections. Could you use the other inlet connection for your return. I know that the one I had fitted to my Duo had two of each.

Alternatively, cut the pipe that goes to the filter, and fit a T piece to connect your return to.

Warm fuel burns better than cold. On the container ships I worked on, all diesel was heated before going to the engines.

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Re: New Vetus M2.18 in my Centaur - ancillaries

Post by TyroSailor »

Yep - can't remember what the number of my primary filter is but it certainly has two pairs of connections - I swapped them over when I moved the filter across the boat. That was the engineer's first suggestion, but there's this thing about warm fuel. I agree - it seems that warm fuel should be fine, but he says not.

Maybe Mr Google can help...
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Re: New Vetus M2.18 in my Centaur - ancillaries

Post by philipstevens »

Fuel pumps are designed for a minimum viscosity and fuel anti wear performance. When the viscosity of the fuel in the pump is too low, hydrodynamic lubrication of the pump can be inadequate, causing wear and scuffing.
A decrease in fuel viscosity may cause an increase in fuel leakage between the pump plunger and barrel. The leakage can lead to hot start and low fuel setting start difficulties, especially in worn fuel pumps. It is advisable to make distillate hot start checks at regular intervals so that the limits of operating conditions for a particular engine are determined. Low viscosity fuels can also lead to the engine not delivering the full designed power output as the design amount of fuel is not delivered by the pump.
This has led most 2- and 4-stroke engine builders to request a minimum viscosity of the fuel before the fuel injection pump of about 2.0 mm2/s (cSt).
This minimum viscosity defines a maximum fuel temperature. For fuels according to the ISO 8217:2012 [9] standard with a minimum viscosity of 2.000 mm2/s (cSt) at 40°C, cooling or chilling may be required to maintain the minimum viscosity before the fuel injection pump.

Guideline for the Operation of Marine Engines on Low Sulphur Distillate Diesel, 2013  CIMAC
http://www.cimac.com/cms/upload/working ... Diesel.pdf

With respect to your engineer, I have spent 25years as an electrical engineer on deep sea containerships, and part of my job was to ensure the fuel heating worked. So, returning the fuel to the inlet side of the filter should not effect the engine, as it is mixing with cold fuel from the fuel tank.
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Re: New Vetus M2.18 in my Centaur - ancillaries

Post by BrightStar »

Ran my engine for over an hour today and felt the spill pipe returning fuel to the tank, the temperature was barely different to the fuel inlet pipe, maybe a few degrees in it.

On large marine diesels on merchant ships the purpose of heating the fuel is to reduce its viscosity, we often heated the fuel to over 120c, with the temperature controlled by a viscosity measuring instrument.

I would have no concern returning the spill fuel to the inlet of the primary filter, the engine will be drawing an amount of fresh fuel from the tank to help cool any small increase in any case.

If it should cause problems then it isn't a big job to reverse the arrangement in any case. Pressure pulses may be a concern if the fuel pipe from the tank to the primary filter is a little small.
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Re: New Vetus M2.18 in my Centaur - ancillaries

Post by steve parry »

Hi all,

Have I lost the plot here?!

We are talking about a small diesel engine being fitted to a Centaur!! In an engine of that size I don't think there would be any difference in fuel temp when it is returned back to the tank or where you choose. The returned fuel is the fuel that has not been used via the injectors to power the engine and only travels across the injectors setup for a minimal amount of time.

The best place for a return pipe is the tank but for reasons stated it would be difficult. I myself have not seen a return pipe put into a fuel feed pipe (via T piece) nor back thru the filter (CAV) So I wouldn't like to comment. I think you need to take advice from a Small Boat MARINE Engineer before doing something.

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Re: New Vetus M2.18 in my Centaur - ancillaries

Post by TyroSailor »

Thanks, guys, for the prompt and helpful responses.

My small boat marine engineer has done a good job installing the engine, and was recommended by the manufacturers so I'm sure I can trust him, but what you say here makes sense, especially the bit about the arrangement being easily reversible. I think (unless I get any more information to the contrary) I'll ask him to connect the return pipe back to the unused inlet on the primary filter. It won't be till the spring now anyway, as I've put the boat to bed for the winter.

He did say (I've just remembered) something about the fuel temperature affecting droplet size and/or spray pattern and therefore combustion efficiency. The 'lift' pump is electric, rather than mechanical, if that makes any difference. I'd be interested to read any further comments on that.
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Re: New Vetus M2.18 in my Centaur - ancillaries

Post by TyroSailor »

My engineer says that the reason ships heat their fuel is that it's heavy fuel oil and needs heating to reduce the viscosity so it flows and sprays properly, as Bright Star said. Yachts, he says, need to cool their diesel (presumably for similar but oppsite reasons...?) It's all new to me :shock:

However, I think we'll go with the primary filter option as it's cheap, easy and reversible.
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Re: New Vetus M2.18 in my Centaur - ancillaries

Post by Hillary »

Hi Folks,

On the subject of standing under a cold shower tearing up £50 notes.... I am currently putting a new engine in and a retired marine engineer is helping me. One of his passions is tractors and since many marine diesels are actually marinised tractor engines he said that its often cheaper to buy spares from an agricultural stockist. I was thinking of fitting a thermostart to my original engine and sure enough the parts needed were cheaper if sourced through an agricultural supplier.
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Re: New Vetus M2.18 in my Centaur - ancillaries

Post by mikebuggy »

Hi. The output from the fuel feedback on modern engines is surprisingly large..bucketfulls.....not just drips, as on older engines.
The combined separator/filter is designed as a 'suck through' unit with a quiet water settlement area below. Feeding it with pumped return fuel will cause a disturbance affect in the settling bowl and also put the units seals under a positive pressure.

If you don't want to drill into the top of the tank, then Tee into the filler pipe neck, or possibly the breather pipe (if not too tiny) near the tank.

You could also drill into the tank...but at a slight risk. With a well lubricated sharp drill, there is not much swarf, and given 1 or 2 days will settle to the bottom to join all the debris already there. If you drill on a side away from the outlet pipe, any swarf may fall on the other side of any tank baffles anyway.
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