MD2B - injector pump problem?

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Re: MD2B - injector pump problem?

Post by Uncle Albert »

Just seen your latest entry which crossed with mine. If the oil is grey then certainly there is water in it.

I thought I had a head gasket gone but found out (luckily ( :roll: ) just before putting it all back together that it was a pinhole in the cylinder liner requiring new liners/pistons . Hope its not that for you

See thread on WOA started by me with pictures. Volvo Penta MD11C Lots of Water in the Oil How?

Good luck and please contact if you need info or just moral support,

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Re: MD2B - injector pump problem?

Post by rhumlady »

Sorry but anything other than golden to black is likely to be emulsified. Head gasket is favourite I am afraid
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Re: MD2B - injector pump problem?

Post by TyroSailor »

Thanks, Uncle Albert. I'll bear that in mind. And thanks for the bad news Derek.

The phrase 'replacement engine' is beginning to enter my consciousness :-( - I think it's financial support I'll be looking for!
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Re: MD2B - injector pump problem?

Post by Vegable »

Can't help with financial support I'm afraid. The other two have said it all. Must admit I'm not too impressed with your mechanic. I hope he's a friend and you're not having to pay for his services.
Being a stuborn so & so I'd be inclined to carry on with the engine. The cost of head gaskets is a lot less than the buying and installation of a replacement engine. The MD2B is a very simple and solidly built engine and when you get to know it simple to work on.
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Re: MD2B - injector pump problem?

Post by TyroSailor »

The chap who 'serviced' it between my buying and launching it clearly is less than favourite. He also didn't re-grind one of the heads seacock cone valves properly when he overhauled it, but has agreed to have another go when the boat comes out in the autumn. He failed to start the engine because the starter motor was faulty (as I later discovered). Nevertheless, after that, I motorsailed for nearly 6 hours to get the boat to where she is now.

The other fellow seems very good. He was recommended by another owner in the marina and specialises in big petrol engines, so I think he regards my little diesel as a bit of light relief. He fixed a couple of earlier problems and charged me very little, even accepting a fiver less because that's all I had on me. On his second visit he spent 40 minutes fiddling with the Morse linkages as well as listening to my tale of woe about the gearbox and diagnosing the injector pump. He said he didn't do those and said I should remove it myself and take it to a specialist. He asked for a fiver for all that, so I also gave him the fiver I owed him from before.

About to investigate cost of head gaskets, injector pumps and injectors compared to new engine.....
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Re: MD2B - injector pump problem?

Post by BrightStar »

A company like Colchester Injection, there will be a similar company in Southampton, will be able to service the injectors and pump, I had my injectors (2) serviced with new nozzles for about £150, I think the pump servicing would be about £150 assuming that there is little damage (i would be surprised if the pump needs any/much attention) the injectors should be done in anycase now and again. The injectors would ge about £60-80 if nozzles not needed

Head gaskets are a bit pricey for what they are but should not break the bank, but check the head / liner landings, they may be worn and need machining, I have recently had an MD7 head and block repaired and machined for £120.

You may find some corrossion on the cylnder walls if you have been ingesting much water over a period of time, clean it up with very fine emery and see how bad it really is if this is the case, you are only taking off the rust - dont try polishing the surface with the emery.

Knowing now that you have a water in sump problem there may not be much wrong with the injection system, your problem maybe poor compression and water in the cylinders.

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Re: MD2B - injector pump problem?

Post by TyroSailor »

Thanks Alan. I've found a company in Southampton that does it and they reckon two hours (at £65 an hour) to service the injector pump. Plus taking it out and putting it back again. If that's really what it is, rather than the head gasket, should I be pleased or otherwise, I wonder?

And if it's not the head gasket, where's the water in the oil come from?

I keep wondering whether I should cut my losses and replace the engine with a more modern (and probably slightly smaller?) reconditioned one....
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Re: MD2B - injector pump problem?

Post by BrightStar »

As you have water in the sump - emulsified milky oil, raised level, I would first thing have the heads off and check the gasket, this is easy to do and should be either DIY or fairly cheap, once the heads are off you can see if the problem is the head gasket (bad case would be a failed liner / cracked cylinder head but not likley). If the gasket has failed ( rust stains in cylinder, possibly water on piston top) fix it and try the engine again before you spend out on the injector pump. Next I would get the injectors serviced ( not a bad idea even if the engine runs better with the head gaskets done), finally the injector pump

Whilst the head is off, might be an idea to get it pressure tested, descaled and the valves checked & re-lapped. Again a DIY job except the pressure testing.

Even if you have to pay someone to do this it shouldn't cost more than £500 - 700.

A new engine is going to cost circa £7k

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Re: MD2B - injector pump problem?

Post by Uncle Albert »

You seem to be in the same position that I was.
I went through the 'where is the water coming from' process and came to the following conclusions as to possible ways it can get into the oil:-
1. Water pump seal
2. head gasket
3. liner and its seals.

there is no other way the wet stuff can get in.

So the elimination processes are. Down load workshop manual from Print off.
1. pump out the emulsified oil and measure how much of it there is. I had 16 litres of the stuff when there should only have been 6 litres of oil! the engine was so full of it that it was spurting out of the oil filler under crank case pressure. The engine would run and the stuff was also being ejected through the exhaust during the mile of tick over motoring I had to do to get back on my mooring. I guess I was lucky that I did not have a hydraulic seizure.

2. if the amount extracted is more than a litre or two then it could just be head gasket. So its exhaust manifold off, alternator off, starter motor off, then rocker cover of no one cylinder off, the 2 bolts to remove the rockers and a careful undo of the oil feed pipe which has to be bent out of the way. Don't drop aluminium/copper sealing washer into the any of the many holes which drain oil back to the sump. Lift off rocker assembly and withdraw push roads and note which one goes where for correct order during reassembly.

3. Undo head bolts. These are seriously torqued up so will need some grunt to shift them. Undo in the order as prescribed in the workshop manual which hopefully you have down loaded (free) and printed off. The nut when being undone may draw out the stud, but not to worry. These long and substantial studs run through the cylinder liner block and into the engine bottom end and so sandwich everything together its important at this stage that not all are with drawn.
Some water will find its way from the head into the engine cylinder and the boat bilge from the cylinder head, but again not to worry it can be cleaned up and its not much, carefully straighten the oil feed tube which you undid from the rocker assembly. This need to be straightened to facilitate lifting the cylinder head.Careful and with out damaging your back as the access and posture is not the best for lifting a weighty lump of cast iron lift the cylinder head off.

4. Inspect head gasket. There will be evidence of seepage or gas leakage. If found then there is probably your answer. If not then do the other cylinder head as per 1, 2 and 3 above.

5. If neither head gaskets seems blown, then it will require further dismantling

Sounds a lot but it is really a bit like a big Meccano kit . The right spanners, sockets and wrenches are the order of the day. Shame you are not near to the east coast as I would happily assist.

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Re: MD2B - injector pump problem?

Post by TyroSailor »

Wow! Thanks, Alan and Uncle!

I have the workshop manual, thanks and shall print off the relevant pages so I can get them oily while I do the work. Your instructions make it sound much easier than I thought and I'm emboldened to try it now. Or rather, next time I go down to the boat which'll be in a couple of weeks. Presumably it's a good idea also to clean out all the waterways and oilways with a wire coathanger while they're accessible.

Getting the other top end jobs done while the head is off seems a sensible idea. I quickly dismissed the idea of a new engine when I realised it would cost at least as much as I paid for the boat, but I might consider a reconditioned one: as well as this/these problems the rust on the outside of the water jacket below the exhaust manifold might be so bad it's weakened the metal, and if that gave way I suspect it'd be curtains. The mechainc/engineer who looked at it reckoned it'd last "another 2 - 5 years, maybe more". I hope he was being cautious.

At first sight it looked like the oil/emulsion level was up by maybe a litre or two - about half an inch on the dipstick, but that was not long after the engine had been (sort of) running). Of course I don't know what shape the sump is at the bottom of the dipstick so it could be more. How do I (eventually) get all the water out of the sump, assuming that any pump I use won't reach the bottom? I don't suppose the drain plug is accessible. If there is one....

I've also found a source for the gaskets - ASAP supplies at £38 per cylinder plus postage - unless anyone knows of a better/cheaper place.

This place is brilliant - as I'd sort of thought it might be. A number of people in the marina have also volunteered their help , and have been recompensed in gin and dinner!

Thanks everyone :-)
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Re: MD2B - injector pump problem?

Post by philipstevens »

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Re: MD2B - injector pump problem?

Post by BrightStar »

If your problem was only water in the sump the prime suspect would be the water pump seals, but as you have running problems as well a problem around the heads is a likely candidate, a fairly straightforward DIY job with specialist assistance if the heads need machining , etc.

As far as descaling goes there are two aspects, cleaning the water spaces is best done by using a chemical, soak the head in it, take care to flush / neutralise after. The other area is decarbonising the exhaust passage — scraping, poking and softening with something like paraffin.

A rusty outside may just need scraping off, priming and painting

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Re: MD2B - injector pump problem?

Post by TyroSailor »

Thanks Philip, Alan.

What about letting the engine pump oxalic/hydrochloric acid through to clean the waterways as recommended in another thread? I wouldn't want to do this if coolant is getting into the oil and possibly the cylinders so it'd have to wait till the gasket's done anyway. Soaking it in a bucketful of the stuff while it's off seems like a good plan.

I can clean the rust off (I've started) but I wonder how much metal would be left when I've finished? I don't want to replace the head gasket, get the injectors and pump serviced, clean all the holes, clean off the rust and repaint the engine only to find it bursts the first time I put it under any stress! That would spoil my whole day.

Looked at all those alternative suppliers, thanks Philip. RK Marine are fairly local and also do servicing etc. so I might see if they can do more, Even a reconditioned engine if it comes to it.
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Re: MD2B - injector pump problem?

Post by BrightStar »

These engines are big blocks of Swedish cast iron, unless something serious has been happening I would be surprised if you have lost much external metal, rust often looks worse than it is. Try cleaning it up and having a good poke around.

Regarding descaling, I would soak the heads and exhaust manifolds whilst they are off, poke through the channels in the block whilst the head is off, maybe blow them through, but not high pressure air, back flush with a hose. When all back together then circulate with a descaler perhaps, but run the engine first and see how the cooling is, it may be well
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Re: MD2B - injector pump problem?

Post by TyroSailor »

Thanks Alan

I'll certainly have a(nother) good scrape and brush when I've got the starter and alternator off (but before taking the heads off, I think, as I don't want the rust going in the cylinders!)
The fairly serious happenening was a long-term leak from the coolant pipe just below the exhaust manifold (which I'd attach a photo of if I knew how) caused by the pipe being cut by a rusty mild steel hose clip which some genius fixed some time ago. The cause has been rectified but the effect is thick (up to 15mm) flaking rust directly below and quite a lot of ordinary rust elsewhere.

I thought I might use the dinghy pump to blow air through the pipes once I've reamed them out.
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