Volvo Penta MD11C Lots of Water in the Oil How?

Uncle Albert
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Volvo Penta MD11C Lots of Water in the Oil How?

Post by Uncle Albert » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:29 pm

I ache a lot now cos I have just lifted off the two Cylinder blocks in order to confirm how or why my sump collected some 8 litres of Water to add to the 6 litres of oil it already contained.

The history of why have had to dismantle my engine is recorded in "Volvo Penta MD2D Broken" thread here:-

http://www.westerly-owners.co.uk/woafor ... t=15#p8063

I have a couple of questions that I hope the collective wisdom of the WOA forum may be able to help with:-

1. can the water pump pressure exceed the crankcase pressure and therefore force water into the sump?
2. If so any idea of how long the task of doubling the sump capacity might take (or has anyone experienced a pump leak in that way and what happened)
3. Having lifted the blocks I see that there is no gasket as per the exploded views generally available but the cam followers and rocker gear oil pipe nipple are sealed with neoprene O rings. There are shims as required but no gasket. Has anyone else seen these as they are not shown on any of the VP diagrams.

I am planning to put it all back together along with some expensive new head gaskets and having changed the water pump seals maybe that was the cause all along .

Looking forward to any views please.


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Re: Volvo Penta MD11C Lots of Water in the Oil How?

Post by Uncle Albert » Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:45 am

Just an update following my previous post. Oh by the way apparently its not and MD2B engine but and MD11C, hence the neoprene seals betwixt block and crankcase.

A suggestion both on this forum and from the local VP service office suggested filling the blocks with water to validate the integrity of the water jacket. So some dyed water was loaded into the jacket waterways and lo and behold it emerged from a tiny tiny pin prick of a hole in the front cylinder block just about where the ring gets to at bottom dead centre. This strangely is quite close to the brass drain cock, (galvanic action perhaps?).

So my decision is made buy a new engine unless anyone has a spare MD11C block they don't need.

Off now to sort out which engine to choose.

Steve
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Re: Volvo Penta MD11C Lots of Water in the Oil How?

Post by Uncle Albert » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:57 pm

well if anyone is reading this the answer to my own question has been found.

A Pin hole in the cylinder liner near to the brass drain tap on the flywheel end cylinder. As soemone once said on this site when I asked about Anodes, The answer was "there are no anodes they just rust away from the inside" This seems to be very true and has occurred in this instance.

The block and its sleeve are now at the engineers being separated and once the level of degradation is identified a new sleeve could well be installed along with its neighbour, and then it will be machined out to match the pistons and rings which are all in excellent condition.

So the VP MD11C may well live to sail another day. I'll keep those who are interested informed.

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Re: Volvo Penta MD11C Lots of Water in the Oil How?

Post by rhumlady » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:05 pm

I have been following the thread but as I have a Bukh in my Konsort I had no input to give. It is good to hear that you may well have a solution that avoids having to spend many thousands of pounds on a new engine and propshaft and prop and new exhause system and and...
Some may not agree with my sentiments but I reckon that the old engines are good for a few years yet and I doubt that most of the newer ones will last anywhere near as long. One thing I am very keen to avoid is electronic engine control and common rail injection systems. I have a LandRover Freelander with a BMW 2.0L TD4 engine. It runs like a sewing machine but would be well suited to boating as when things go wrong it feels that I am ripping up £50.00 notes and fueling the beast with them. As for the computerised diags they leave a lot to be desired.
Derek
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Re: Volvo Penta MD11C Lots of Water in the Oil How?

Post by Uncle Albert » Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:07 pm

Further update having collected block and separated liner from the engineers. The block is in excellent condition with only a small amount of degradation on one of the seal recesses. The waterways are quite clear of siltation etc. The pin hole visible on the piston side of the liner was found to be about 1/4 inch diameter on the water side. All other areas of the liner on the water side were unmarked I can only suppose that there was a flaw in the cast iron which was more corrosion receptive than the rest. Just my luck. (I'll try and photograph it and post it, if I learn how to)

I will get the second liner pressed out and assuming the seals grooves are similar then will progress to getting new liners either made or, after a large whisky, from VP.

I am seeking a quotation from http://westwoodcylinderliners.co.uk/ to evaluate what to do.

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Re: Volvo Penta MD11C Lots of Water in the Oil How?

Post by Uncle Albert » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:33 pm

Well a further update of progress. Second liner was pressed out and all was found to be good in the block, just a small amount of crud blocking part of the water jacket ( about 10%), this was soon removed by the dremel and rotary rasp.

Order placed with VP for 2 liner sets (which include Pistons, rings, set of seals and gudgeon pin) so whilst the cost looked horrible initially given that what you get is fully matched set it does not turn out too bad. Also on order from VP is a decoke set which is far more cost effective than buying the head and manifold gaskets seperately, (and dare I say not at all dissimilar to another supplier of parts for this engine which may or may not be pattern parts).

Starter motor and alternator are being serviced and checked over by my son-in-law (autoelectric engineer and a good ol' boy)

So there we are then I am now awaiting delivery of the bits before reassembling the beast.

My only worries (3 off) are:-
(1) the heating of the of the pistons to extract and install gudgeon pins, anyone out there done this?
(2) how to arrive at the correct clearances for diesel ignition purposes (bump Clearance) and
(3) the ability to do all this whilst manhandling the blocks on to the pistons when 4 hands are necessary but there is only space for 1 individual to get into the engine bay.

Still some interesting times ahead.

Steve (Uncle Albert)

PS cant upload photos of liner as picture too big for forum. Any guidance on this would be appreciated
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Re: Volvo Penta MD11C Lots of Water in the Oil How?

Post by Uncle Albert » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:52 pm

Further update of the continuing saga.

Well the parts have arrived and my wallet is lighter, although it could have been a lot lighter if the good people at Volspec were not so accommodating.

I have no doubts that this is the correct way to go and progress has been made today with the removal of the original pistons and replacing with the new ones.

My worries about removing and installing the Gudgeon pins was allayed by the use of a substantial G Cramp, some plastic waste water pipe and a couple of carefully chosen sockets which were employed in extracting the old pins. The little ends were inspected and were found to be in wonderful condition.

The new gudgeon pins were stored in the home freezer for 3 days prior to fitting and they easily slid into the unheated pistons.

I have one cylinder block to hand to install next whilst the other is away with the engineers to have some slight remedial work done to the sealing 'O' ring grooves, which showed some corrosion and pitting. But they assure me that once some 'liquid metal' has been applied and the grooves re machined then all will be good . They will insert the liner and pressure test to ensure no water leaks.

Looks like I may be back on the water before the end of September, just in time for the Indian Summer we all deserve!!!!

Many thanks to the webmaster for trying to sort out some pictures to post on this thread of the insides of the block and the offending cylinder liner.

More info as the rebuild progresses.

Steve
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Re: Volvo Penta MD11C Lots of Water in the Oil How?

Post by Uncle Albert » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:47 pm

Hoorah here are the pictures. The offending hole in the cylinder liner
P8230020.jpg
The offending hole in the Cylinder Liner viewed from the 'wet' side
P8230020.jpg (100.71 KiB) Viewed 7859 times

The inside of the cylinder block, and its attendant 35 year corrosion. ( A rarely seen part of our Westerlys).
P8230021.jpg
Inside of the cylinder block.
P8230021.jpg (89.09 KiB) Viewed 7859 times
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Re: Volvo Penta MD11C Lots of Water in the Oil How?

Post by Uncle Albert » Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:56 pm

Last entry for this log by me.

Well its all back together and today it started first turn of the key.

Sounds sweet and just a small water leak from the thermostat housing to sort out along with double checking the connections to the Alternator and tensioning the belt.

All that now remains is to sort out above, run again in the yard to get up to temp and then change the oil and filter then back in teh water. Heres hoping for an indian summer/autumn.

If anyone needs a liner and piston including rings and gudgeon pin let me know. There is one stored in my garage in excellent condition. The other cylinder liner (the one with the hole in it), will become a trophy for the club under the title "Well I did not expect that to happen!!!"

Steve (chuffed to bits with his MD11C)
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Re: Volvo Penta MD11C Lots of Water in the Oil How?

Post by Neil Spooner » Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:04 am

Bugger bugger bugger!!
I have not long joined this forum, and have followed this thread (I did post a question as to how you were getting on in the previous thread)
I used an MD11 engine to restore my MD1b and have a spare cylinder you could have used.
Glad to hear you are "under way" again.
I would suggest you remove the ex' manifold and take out all the core plugs (obtainable thru ebay at £1.50 each) and clean out all the corrosion that will be blocking all the water ways in the cooling jacket. Any blockages in the water ways here and the cyl' heads will translate to an overheat later and blown head gaskets.....back to square one. Have a good tap and knock around in the ex' ports of the manifold to check if the wall is so thin it is about to fail. (again, if it does you will get water in the engine.) If you find the manifold is beyond repair (holed internally or externally I have a good manifold from the donor engine which is for sale.
I made a heat exchanger for the engine which has worked very well on my Mirror Offshore so that I did not have raw sea water cooling the engine (second water pump driven off of the back of the engine) which is about to be knicked from the Mirror and fitted to my Griffon to accompany the overhauled engine in that.
Well done on your tenacity.....the MD11 is a super engine.
To preserve the condition of the valve seats I "park" my engine so that the exhaust valves are closed, it stops corrosive vapours in the manifold accumulating on the valve seats and shortening their life.
Have fun and good luck.
Neil
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Re: Volvo Penta MD11C Lots of Water in the Oil How?

Post by Uncle Albert » Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:44 pm

Thanks Neil for the info and list of potential aspects which I may be looking forward to next year!!!

I must say that the 3 or 4 hours I have run the engine since completing the rebuild have shown it to be just as powerful and it seems quieter and smoother than before (but that may be my imagination).

Have just replaced the key and roll pin linking the prop shaft and gearbox output boss, as it was a bit sloppy and resulted in a previous roll pin being sheared due to torque chatter/fatigue. The new one is nice snug fit with no play evident between the two components.

I will follow your tip on exhaust valve closure during lay up, every time I hand turn her over. I am conscious that there may be some salt residues remaining in the bowels of the engine despite the oil changes and flushing oil which have been done so getting the oil to spread itself around every now and again can't be a bad thing.

Fresh water cooling conversion would be a great idea but have no idea where to start or what's involved.

Next job is to fashion and install lever/cable mechanism to enable the cold start button to be operated without lifting the cockpit deck paraphernalia.

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Re: Volvo Penta MD11C Lots of Water in the Oil How?

Post by Neil Spooner » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:37 am

Hi Steve,
If you mark the starter shaft with a white dot where both ex' valves are closed it will make finding the spot easier.
If you want to use a heat exchanger you will have to use either an electric pump or a mechanical one to circulate the coolant. I created a drive on the back of my engine for a std pump, this circulates the coolant through the heat exchanger. Making the exchanger was interesting. I used Cupro/nickle pipe 12mm bore, filled it with silver sand, crimped the ends so the sand couldn't move, and then wrapped it around a 4" tube to bend it into a coil. This was then put into a tube of copper with two other pipes which just access the interior, an inner "wall" of copper makes the coolant in the interior have to go around the coil. The seawater passes through the tube, the coolant through the interior. Some photos for you with this post of the heat exchanger, and the back of the engine showing both pumps. The second pump is driven off of the starter shaft which I machined to fit a bolt with a blade as part of it to drive the pump. If I remember rightly the housing has a plate on the back that can be removed to fit a flange to mount the pump.
(the copper sheet was from an old immersion heater)
Neil
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Re: Volvo Penta MD11C Lots of Water in the Oil How?

Post by aquaplane » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:07 pm

Uncle Albert wrote:Next job is to fashion and install lever/cable mechanism to enable the cold start button to be operated without lifting the cockpit deck paraphernalia.

Steve CR1702 ( AKA Uncle Albert)
I have made a ¼" hole in the base of the engine panel recess and stuck a length of ¼" tube through it.
The lower end of the tube has a rubber cup fixed to it which holds it on top of the cold start button.
Initially the device jumped off when the cold start button popped out but a cable tie round the rubber cup now holds it in place.
The tube isn't quite verticle but it's not far off.
I can now push in the cold start button from the cockpit. :D

It's a Heath Robinson lashup but it works.
Bob.
Centaur now sold. Boating from Tarbert.

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Re: Volvo Penta MD11C Lots of Water in the Oil How?

Post by Uncle Albert » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:15 pm

Hi Aquaplane, thanks for the tip re the cold start button. I was planning to go more sophisticated with a lever pivoting on the strangely wired bolt just to the right of the button, (what is that wire for?????) and a bicycle spoke arrangement to activate it from the cockpit. Been too cold to go to the boat lately to work on this aspect in detail.

Hi Neil, your calorifier is intriguing. Any idea what sort of flow an electric pump needs to provide to keep the temperatures right. I believe I read at some time that the pump output was a gallon a minute but of course that is engine speed dependant. More speed = more heat = more water needed.


Thanks for the valve indicator info too.

Steve
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Re: Volvo Penta MD11C Lots of Water in the Oil How?

Post by Neil Spooner » Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:26 pm

I have not measured the flow rate of a std pump, but very easy to do with a std installation, just disconnect the feed to the ex' swan neck and measure 30seconds worth of engine running at max' rpm. (for 30 seconds nothing is going to overheat) Then do a flow test on an electric pump if you can't find anything in the spec's or if its second hand.

On my Griffon I took every connection apart, including removing any elbows or unions, here is a photo of what the gearbox connection looked like, and that is the first restriction in the whole engine, most looked similar. The amount of corrosion debris in the ex' manifold was keeping it together, once removed I found a large hole. This I machined out and threaded with a 1/2"bsp, and fitted a union with a blank end on it.
Gearbox coolant connection.jpg
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